Hellobee Boards

@Kemma: I have a former colleague/friend who used to say "grass is always greener on the other side...but you still have to mow it!"
And I try to remind myself of that often. Pros and cons to everything and just try to embrace the pros.

@Anagram: I had the same thought, single parents get the hands down!

@Boogs: I think Mrs. Sketchbook meant that in a daycare setting, there are different people wearing different hats, not one person wearing multiple hats. One person doesn't have to do everything there, there's a person that cleans, another that is responsible for the curriculum, etc.

I thought about it, I am jealous of Beyonce.

@Boogs: well technically i I think she's right if you define "one hat" as "everything relates to family.". She's right that all of that stuff relates to family management. But whether you decide that makes it all "one hat" is up to debate.

@Anagram:. I think maybe I am being intellectually lazy and assuming that the people here can decide if WOHM/SAHM makes personal/financial sense and then own their decision to do whatever works best for them. I know only a few families who have to have two working parents, because they make around 30k apiece. I do know some SAHPs who make it work when their spouses make in the 45 to 50 range. So I guess I don't have as much sympathy for people who feel they "must" work because they want to make over 75k because they must live in a place with insane costs. I see all of that as choice because I don't live in that world. My husband and I have never had dual income and we've been married ten years. I know about the not outsourcing thing because I was in school while working....so basically eating the cost of daycare while only working part time. But that was my choice and I wouldn't do it if I didn't want to. I could easily go back to being an SAHM or even get a full time job that didn't require a career change (retail etc.). I don't hold it against anyone that I wasn't able to outsource more because I chose my setup. Definitely outside the boundaries of HB I wouldn't make assumptions about choice. I will say I feel more comfortable making assumptions about choice on HB because I am one of a very few posters who does not seem to live in a suburban, urban environment with a lot of resources.

@Cherrybee: However, I think *my* husband would be a great ex husband! I mean, he would probably fight for for full custody, but once we got that settled and each had something like 50%, I would totally have a ton of time off, hehe. And he would definitely pay child support, because he doesn't love anything in this world more than his own family, haha. And saving money, lol.

@Mrs. Sketchbook: I'm not totally following what your response has to do with what I said about assuming all working parents outsource the things SAHPs typically are responsible for. Whether or not we choose our situations, in YOUR opinion, I'm not sure how that translates to who does what, and wears what hat. You and several other posters sort of implied that working parents do not wear several hats, because they outsource many things and have lunches and sick days off, etc.

And I know it's not just me that lives in a reality where that is not the case. Here on HB, in real life, anywhere.

@Mrs. Sketchbook: See that's why I was curious. I don't think there's one definitive right answer, but I do think assuming one hat vs two is a blanket statement and totally situational.

Some WOH parents have lots of outsourced help, parents that evenly split the workload, etc. Some don't have any of that. The same can be said for SAH parents. Or just because they don't have a 'job' doesn't mean they don't have other people they don't have to answer to, like perhaps if they are students, or other responsibilities outside the home. No matter what your role is, I just don't think it can be so simply summarized as a one vs two because there are so many variables in play. It really is like comparing apples to oranges. I.e. Say someone has a nanny, cook, and maid, but they still get to say they have two hats because they have a job. Sure they might have an added stessor in their life with their job, but in some areas you could argue they have less stressors because of their extra help. I think that's why it's a 'debate' that never really ends, it's just too situational to assume it can be as simplified as one hat vs two, is all I'm trying to say.

@Anagram: My heart goes out to your friends! We all might complain about our struggles, but we really are very privledged! I grew up much like your friends kids are and it's super hard on mom and kids. My DH would also make an amazing ex, but I still think it's easier to just stay married to him.

@pinkcupcake: 75k isn't much in our area either, it's insane what people need to make to survive!

@Anagram: See I think you and I are trying to say some of the same things. Just because someone outsources things doesn't mean their hats get taken away. I think hats are just too general of a statement for the many unique situations and responsibilities each individual has. It's all bigger than a one had vs two mentality.

@Boogs: your whole paragraph about help and this whole debate never ending..

@looch: @pinkcupcake: I completely agree with both of you! The purpose of my post was just to say that the beginning of peace with our choices is to recognize that we made the choices and celebrate the good things about that choice, instead of continually focusing on the limitations of our choice to the point that we alienate ourselves from people who have made different ones. I don't consider the occasional lunch with my husband to be "outsourcing" beyond what the average HB user can afford (on a limited basis of course, especially when you pack your own lunch, which hubs and I have done in the past), so I guess I was a little hurt that Anagram pounced on that example. I was just trying to give an example of a small thing I did while working that brought me joy. But it could easily have been taking a walk on your work break (free), or work friendships (free), or going to the store on the way to daycare (free).....etc etc. I think I was frustrated with Anagram's response to me about WOHM's outsourcing because it implied that some people are stuck in choices they had zero control over, and that making a choice for your own happiness is just impossible for working moms, and that even suggesting that someone "choose joy" was inherently problematic. I think it is unfortunate that someone can easily say something along the lines of "SAHMs on HB have a limited intellectual life and very few responsibilities" but if someone else points out that "WOHMs on HB choose their life just as much as anyone else," that's considered beyond the pale of acceptable.

All I'm suggesting is that everyone own their own choices, because most of us have been fortunate enough, relative to others, to make choices, and if there's nothing about our current situation that brings us joy, then we are lucky that we can choose to make different choices to change what our life looks like.

@PinkCupcake: I'm part minority and have always lived in urban areas, so I had a very hard time fitting in where we decided to move. It was a root of a lot of depression for me. Thus why I started back to work, went to therapy, moved to a place a little nicer that is still within driving distance of my husband's work, etc. But I try when possible to own my decisions as being mine. At some point I was 19, unmarried, in college, without kids. And I made the decisions that placed me here. They have good and bad outcomes, but they're my choices!

@looch: @ElbieKay: Right. We could all move to the middle of nowhere, like where I grew up, where the industry is cotton farming and...well, cotton farming. But the thing is, what cotton farmers are paying their workers (if you aren't a large large owner) also isn't enough to make it out there, even though the cost of living looks like a pittance on paper compared to what we spend now. It just doesn't make sense---plus, none of our families live in particularly low COL areas anymore.

I think public school teachers there make like, 30k a year, and that's if they can even get hired, since schools are small. Having grown up in a jobs desert, it doesn't seem like moving to one is a ticket to financial freedom and home life bliss.

@Anagram: believe me I understand you. My students are almost all adult returners. I have fifty year old minority women who work at a carpet factory and then come immediately to my class and then "outsource" dinner to McDonald's and bring it to my class and eat. I have 22 year old mom's of two who can't outsource and occasionally bring their kids to my class when they can't find childcare. So I get it. But it is hard not to get hurt when you know that the vast majority of HB posted are not in those straits, and you hear em say something like "eh I envy how lazy SAHMs can be but not how intellectually impoverished they are." That's defining your own choice (to work) in opposition to a boogeyman. It would be like if I said "eh I envy how much nicer clothes WOHMs have but I wouldn't want to be so alienated from my children in the same way they are.". Defining my choice relative to a terribly negative and damaging stereotype. Better just to do a gut check on the choices I have control over and ask myself "is this still working for me?"
A few ears ago DH accepted a job in a densely populated metro area. We visited all the possible places we could live and for us it was a very intense and expensive environment. We realized we simply could not do it. It would have required me to get a job immediately, just to get cleared on a loan to buy a house. ATM I had a four month old. Even though the public schools were the best in the state, and job opportunities galore, we just couldn't do it. And I grew up in the metro area so I was really surprised that I was ready to say no to that. But anyway, since then I have not felt jealous of my friends who live in high COL areas. The trade off are not worth it for me. Obviously it isn't the same to everyone. I respect why other people make different decisions. I am wondering how many people who are WOHMs in this thread would make the choices necessary to SAHM? How many would choose to make the choices necessary to WOHM? If you're not willing to make the changes, then are you really jealous? Or just grumpy?

I should also note that my adult students are in far more dire straits that most HBers but still have a very optimistic attitude about their choice to return to school! I find it to be pretty amazing.

I made the decision to stay home, but then I also made the decision to go back to work a few years later...I think there is also a silent subset of women that don't have the choice to make, or at least, don't think they have the ability to make the choice.

@Mrs. Sketchbook: I don't think the intention of this thread was to discuss women that don't have choice.

Personally, I do think about those women that would like to work, but cannot for a variety of reasons, including being told that their place is in the home or no prospects in their living location. I also think about the women that have no choice and are forced to work, in poor conditions for an unfair wage. I always try to look outside of my immediate situation and understand what people outside my bubble are experiencing, rather than get into debates about the number of hats people are wearing. There's no right answer, let's instead think about the truly less fortunate.

@looch: I also think about these women, and I teach them! But I've been asked multiple​ times to check my privilege in a thread full of privileged women. So ok. If we move the goalpost and start talking about work choice from the perspective of women who do not have choice (as if we could even begin to speak on their behalf), then it is fairly clear that women who cannot choose to work are in equally bad straits as women who cannot choose not to work. I'm talking about in America. It would be presumptuous for me to talk about anything else because I haven't lived out of America long enough to have any handle on any of that.

@looch: I was just at PT and there are so many SAHMs taking their kids to therapy, some for profound special needs. Many moms of children who have severe disabilities can't work because they spend so much time going to appointments that it wouldn't even work out for them to work. So they rely on Medicaid and cutting their budget down to nothing and have husbands who work 2 jobs etc. This why ACHA is the literal worst. I get PT for 12 dollars a session through EI and I'm in the highest income bracket! On my EOB it is listed as 99 dollars a week, just for basic PT and nothing else. What would low income people do without these programs?

Me talking about choice was never intended to imply that everyone has full control over their lives! It was just to point out that if we are lucky enough to have choice we should honor our privilege by making the healthiest decisions for ourselves and trying not to hold any grotesque assumptions about the lives of others. And I really didn't get into the issue of choice in terms of social justice because who am I to comment on what a poor mother of a special needs child should do about working or staying at home?

@Boogs: I live in a place that is economically depressed, yet culturally most people believe that it is the "right" thing for a mother to stay at home. I know many, many women who stay at home with multiple children with a spouse who is a public schoolteacher pulling somewhere between 30-55k a year. Around here, that's still really difficult. I think that's why I get so enraged when people talk about SAHM as if it is always a privilege. I mean, I do not hold the absolute value that being at home is better than being at daycare, and I've always worked at least a little bit since my youngest was 4 months old, but I also really am amazed at these middle class women who scrimp and save and bake their own bread and sell MLM (NOT my thing) in order to support their choice. And it really peeves me to see these women written off as privileged, intellectually impoverished, or lazy. It really enrages me. It so so unfair, so bubble-based, such an urban elite attitude. I mean, just writing about it pisses me off.

@Mrs. Sketchbook: I agree, I have the same feelings! I think that's why trying to define something as just one hat irks me, it's definitely situational and often times so much more than that. Despite my husband's great job, we are barely middle class because of where we live.

@looch: It really can, it is so scary! We do everything we can 'just in case,' but we all never really know.

I have always worked full-time and been jealous of SAHMs, but we recently moved and I'm SAHM until we sort of daycare and it's been EXHAUSTING! I've been home with my two kids (just turned 4 and almost 2) for just two months and I have to say I don't think I'm cut out to be a SAHM. I love the outings/adventures (it seems like we are out doing fun things a lot) but my just turned 4yo is so unappreciative and argumentative. I don't like feeling like I should do all the cooking/cleaning (which I don't do but I feel like I "should") and to be honest I liked my job (nurse) and I liked making money. Right now I feel guilty spending money when I'm not bringing any in. I feel like I need to be a bit more mentally stimulated, too. Right now because the weather is nice we're outside a lot, but I have a feeling that in the winter it would be very isolating. In my ideal world I'd work 2-3 days/week.