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@Anagram: No definitely not ALL men. I didn’t mean to imply that. It seems that when I hear complaints though it’s generally about husbands. DW and I do just about what you describe - lotsssss of discussion - and it works!
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@ilovepie: We split similar to this as well. Pretty much, it's not mine, I don't deal with it.
Most of DHs tasks are traditionally male, while mine are female.
I think some of our split is the fact that DH was a SAHD for the first almost 3 years of my oldest kid. He had 2 for the first 7 months of my second kid.
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@Anagram: I love the way you broke it down and the fact that I guess grass isn't always greener on the other side for me either! I can totally see if there's 2 of me, I'd just be fighting for control probably haha. And you're so right; I probably take on a lot more b/c I WANT to be in control anyway and I don't want the ball to be dropped. Not on all things obviously, there are def things I don't really care about either. And I'm gonna ask DH this too, but I do also feel like part of it is he assumes I WANT to handle a lot of this load b/c of the control freak/perfectionist that I am
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@wrkbrk: no, I get it. It's just interesting to me, because my husband grew up in a culture and in a family, is by all accounts more traditional than the U.S.--and yet, from what I can see of his sister's marriage, their marriage is extremely equal in that they both work and both she and her husband seem to share the childcare/cleaning tasks equally. And my husband and I have a really equitable arrangement. So it makes me wonder why?
It's not like his parents were drilling into their heads growing up how husbands should share in all household tasks equally----to the contrary, my MIL never worked until they immigrated to the US and she's always cooked every meal, done all the washing, etc--even now that they are both retired. I've never seen my FIL cook anything at all, whatsoever.
So It's interesting to observe and makes me wonder.
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@Anagram: That's what's been interesting to me too. And I assume "most" men spent a period of their lives single/living alone so they def are capable of taking care of themselves at least... That's why I think from another post I said maybe they just feel like they can hand that mental load part over, esp if the female accepts it. It was naturally just part of our division of labor, it's just that with more kids, the more the mental load becomes. I think it's prob a combo of nature (personality) and nurture (from his original home, or current).
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@wrkbrk: @Anagram: @graceandjoy: sorry if this kind of derails the thread but do you think the resentment and frustration part of it comes from ingrained gender roles? As in, when I think of our division in our 2 mom household, I tend to take on the more traditionally female mental load tasks. But I don’t even bat an eye at that because both of us are women, one of us has to do it. BUT if I was married to a man and it was exactly the same as now, I think I probably would feel unequal/resentful that it’s assumed I would do those tasks. In my case, I know for sure that DW and I both know about mental load and I would trust her FULLY to take over if I couldn’t. It’s more that I like to get these things taken care of and she takes a more easygoing approach regardless of a male/female thing.
Also, thought this was appropriate
https://www.buzzfeed.com/elliewoodward/chrissy-teigen-dragged-john-legend-the-voice-dinner-party -
My husband is a good dad. Works a lot and has a good job. We have a great life because of that. But he couldn’t do this job without me doing so much at home. I don’t work and honestly couldn’t with the amount of sick days etc that three kids require.
I carry 100% of the mental load. It’s hard. Some of it I get, because this is my “job”. But having to remind him of the morning routine (he has a couple weeks off for Christmas!) today as we hurried out the door was beyond annoying. Yes our daughter does in fact need water at preschool. Yes the lunch you packed must go into a bag and then into the backpack! I give him a lot of shit and don’t hold back so hopefully he wises up!
Yesterday I reminded him to please grab a gift card for a gift for our cleaner who comes today. He forgot. So this morning after we dropped two kids off at school we ran to get it and drop it back at the house before the cleaner arrived. He complained it was a lot of running around! I wasn’t like uhhhh dude I asked you to do this yesterday so we didn’t have to do all this running around!!! He’s totally in the camp if not giving gifts to teachers, etc so if I didn’t do it, it wouldn’t get done and he wouldn’t care. A lot of things would be like that if he was in charge!
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@muffinsmuffins: Yes, I agree with you! I am sure I would harbor resentment if a dude assumed I would take care of all the child stuff. But with DW, we just split it that way because I actually PREFER it and she prefers other things like household, bills, cleaning lady, car maintenance, booking travel, insurance policies. A bit of a double standard perhaps!!
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@Anagram: YES!
So, my husband goes back and forth from the "wait, we have to have teacher gifts?" to super opinionated. For example, he was frustrated by the fact that I planned most of DS's nursery (mind you, it was a vintage baseball nursery.) He felt like I took over. But, here's the thing: it would have NEVER happened if I didn't do it. Like, I'm sure he would have had a crib, a sheet on it, and maybe a baseball poster on the wall. I planned the heck out of that thing. So, when I was pregnant with our daughter, I came up with this whole plan, painstakingly made an inspiration board for it and showed it to my husband. It was purple flower theme with gold and a soft mint color. He's like "what if we did a vintage zoo? I just don't think purple flowers is a theme." I lost it. Like UGLY cried. "Her name is going to be Violet! How is that not a theme?!?!"
I think what we've learned is that I have to carry the mental load, but he's got to be most of the of the physical force behind it. I research and pick out the crib, you put it together etc. It's not perfect and sometimes I resent it, but I also am not sure if I want him to carry some of the mental load (and do things his own way!) Just being honest! So, I planned what the kids are getting for Christmas and DH is picking out their stockings. Is he getting what I would get? No, but at least he is feeling included. I realize that some of this comes off condescending to my husband, and I truly don't mean it. He has other wonderful attributes that go beyond planning/ mental load stuff.
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@crazydoglady: yes, be careful what you wish for! I think what a lot of we women want is someone who will do exactly what we want, exactly how we want it. And in reality, the partners may do what we want, but they are going to do it their own way.
As of this year, my husband dresses our girls and does their hair every morning. Does he do their hair the way I would do it/dress them in combinations I would choose? NO
But it's not my job, it's his....so I keep my mouth shut 98% of the time. -
@crazydoglady: And also, in your crib scenario....in my house, my husband would never fall for that! haha. He'd immediately call me out and say, "let's switch....and I pick out the crib and YOU put it together"....so compromise, it has to be.
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@muffinsmuffins: It is sooo interesting... And I totally get the Chrissy Teigen thing! The thing is, I so see both sides and it's so like my own marriage! John thinks hey, it's just a casual thing, no need to go crazy over it, therefore no advance notice needed. Chrissy things, hey, do you know how much work goes into making these things fun/perfect?!
@Mrs. Champagne: I'm def with you! I don't MIND carrying the mental load, I think I just got really annoyed when I already carry 99.9% of it and then the ball gets dropped on the 0.01% (in my case it wasn't even in my mental load b/c I didn't even know).
@wrkbrk: Now I just can't stop thinking about how this all would be if I married myself lol!
@crazydoglady: I think we're in a safe place here! I also love DH and appreciate all that he does which is a lot, but I def things get really confusing when it comes to mental load! And girl I would've totally ugly cried with you if DH told me purple is not a theme while her name is Violet
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@Anagram: Totally me too. For the things I do let go control of; I am super aware and I do not complain ever!
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@crazydoglady: I am dying over the vintage zoo suggestion. Listen, my friend went with a vintage circus theme and it was the scariest nursery I have ever seen. Like - not the vibe you’re going for! Sorry husband!
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@Anagram: haha I made my husband take over lunch. He does it at night and I don’t usually see whats in it after he sticks it in the fridge. But this morning I watched him pack it. Omg. Not what I would ever pack but I’m choosing not to pick the battle.
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I take care of a lot of the mental load because that's just my personality, and I honestly don't mind it. Things like paying the bills or planning vacations or buying my daughter's clothes I'd rather do anyway. The only thing that does bother me is not feeling appreciated for doing those things, like somehow they aren't seen as a contribution to our household as much as him changing the oil or mowing the grass. I also would like more empathy when I'm feeling overwhelmed by the mental load when we have a lot going on at once.
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@krispi: 10000% yes!
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@krispi: this.
I take care of the mental load in our house and I am generally okay with it, and in fact I honestly prefer it. I just wish he realized all of the behind the scenes things I do. How things don't just happen to be there or ready when DH or DD need them - I keep constant track of the moving pieces of our lives.
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@Anagram: It did help that I was super pregnant.
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@krispi: I wish HB had the clapping hands emoji.
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I don't always know exactly what is meant by mental load, but I feel like most of it does not involve getting to make interesting or meaningful decisions, it's just stuff to be done. I get the bill, write out the check, address it, and drop it in the mailbox on time. Pretty much one way to do that. I periodically check account balances. I chop whatever dinner leftovers are in the fridge into bite-sized pieces for school lunch and grab the lunch box. I spend tons of time researching available childcare options, summarize what I learn... it is an important decision but ultimately one we have to make together. But that doesn't mean an equal amount of time goes into learning about the options... And so forth...
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DH doesn't like it when I treat him like a servant with a to-do list. I think part of the problem is remembering that if you want something done (by another adult) you can't dictate exactly how you want it done. People learn best when they are left to fail and figure it out. I know that delegating can help with the metal load, but in our house just being completely hands off of the things that I don't do helps more.
Also leaving the kids alone with DH all the time (with the expectation that he'll do the basic maintenance of house that we both agree is the norm while he's at it) helps him feel more comfortable doing it all himself. We were forced into that because I worked PT in the evenings since both kids were infants.
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@periwinklebee: I think that's fair. Most of the big decisions get discussed but the little stuff just has to happen and can be more overwhelming when it all piles up.
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@krispi: Wow, this is the most succinct response and explanation I have seen to this. Yes, I don't really mind doing all the things, but the lack of appreciation is what really pisses me off. I also think that my husband and I am going to presume a lot of other husbands just don't really CARE about these kinds of things because they don't think that they are important. And they don't think that they are important because they don't have to. It is a cyclical mess that can't be fixed in one conversation.
Also, I think as far as gender roles go, being organized as a woman is considered an asset in many ways, and I don't see it pushed as much of an asset to a male, or at least not in the same way. It's sort of like organized vs structured.
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@krispi: yessssss to the empathy for feeling overwhelmed by it!
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@Mrs. Cereal: Bingo! The lack of appreciation and empathy is because those things just aren't as important to him. And if I weren't around, they wouldn't get done for the most part. When I'm overwhelmed because I have to bake all the things, buy all the presents, and clean the house, he's says not to worry and just don't do them. He's happy to have people over with a house in complete disarray and serve store bought goodies.
In all fairness, I probably don't fully appreciate some of the things he does like insisting on changing my oil himself. If he didn't do it, I'd just take it to a mechanic...
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I highly recommend the book Drop the Ball by Tiffany Dufu. She uses some pretty amazing examples like, she turned the responsibility of securing babysitters over to her husband. He sends one group text to all their babysitters and the first one to nab the offer wins. Dufu was horrified at first, but then realized...whatever. he took care of it.
I've made great strides in developing the same attitude. I also give DH ownership of things so that I don't feel like his mom or boss, delegating little things here and there. He's a grown man who holds a grown man job. He can own things around the house. I gave him several ideas of tools to help him have ownership (apps, whiteboard, phone alarm, etc.).
He owns the relationship with the cleaning company. I don't even know who they are or what time of day they come. He is their only contact. His job is to keep me informed of what day they are coming so I can plan accordingly and help pick up the house.
DH also packs DD's backpack everyday. This includes 2 snacks, her folder, all winter gear, water bottle and nap stuff on Mondays. I laminated a sheet for him at the start of the school year with the packing list and a list of acceptable snacks. He has maintained the list, updating as necessary. I helped him put the system in place and he has maintained it. Last week, he was gone one morning and DD chewed me out for forgetting her water bottle. DH does a better job than me! Sure, some days she gets all carbs for a snack and no protein or fruit, but whatever...she eats a balanced school lunch.
These are just two systems that we have that work, there are plenty of other areas where we would benefit from a system. Baby steps!
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@SweetCaroline: I relate a lot to this. DH stays home with LO part time, and I have learned to hand over things to him and just let them go. When it is a routine and he knows for sure that I am not going to take care of it, then he handles things just fine.
Two areas that I struggle with w/r/t DH and mental load are follow through and planning. He accuses me of being super particular about things like how laundry is folded, and then uses that as an excuse not to do those things. I have to explain to him that the only reason I am "micromanaging" is because he has not completed the task. If the towels were put away in the closet, there is no way that I would be pulling them back out to refold them! But DH often leaves tasks 3/4 done (i.e. laundry folded, but never put away) and if I have to get involved at that point, then I will definitely do the job the way I prefer.
On the planning front, DH consistently fails to appreciate the thought and preparation that go into things. Like previous posters have mentioned, he will check in when I am 80% done with something, and ask whether there is anything we need to do to get ready for it. Yeah, dude, all of the things I have been doing for the last month! It's not so much that I mind doing the things (I like planning), but his total lack of awareness is maddening. This is always so clear at Christmas - yesterday, he went out, bought a bunch of crap at Target for DD, and wrapped it and put it under the tree today. I had to let him know that I was going to have to unwrap a bunch of it and return some things because a lot of what he bought is redundant either with what I already got for her, or with things she already owns. It's December 19th - did he think I hadn't been working on this for a while yet?
Sorry for the novel, I am just feeling frustrated tonight!
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@lady baltimore: wow that strikes me as random - he went to target without coordinating with you on what you’d already gotten your DS??
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@lady baltimore: The half done jobs are so annoying. Just finish it and do it the right way! This is an ongoing argument DH and I have so often.
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@wrkbrk: Yes. He thinks he is "helping" (he bought me a bunch of redundant crap on this same shopping trip) and just doesn't realize how pitching in at the last minute without making a plan usually just creates more work.
@winter_wonder: I swear, I don't even care much about things being done "the right way", I just want them finished! If I have to nag someone through completing a task, I'd rather just do it myself (which then leads to being crabby about having to do it myself . . .).
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