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@junebugmama: can I ask a question of honest curiosity: how did you come to your decision? Are there certain vaccines you're comfortable with, and others you're not? I only ask because I didn't even realize that it was a possibility to delay or only partially vaccinate prior to joining HB. I had never heard of it before.
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We vaccinate on schedule.
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@junebugmama: Please feel free to share your rationale. Why have you chosen to not fully vaccinate your children?
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@junebugmama: So are your children vaccinated for polio and whooping cough?
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We will absolutely, 100% vaccinate. I read this heartbreaking article/opinion piece from 2009 when it first came out--by a mother whose child has medical reasons he cannot be vaccinated--and I always think of it when the topic comes up: http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2009/10/a_pox_on_you.html
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@LovelyPlum: I researched the content that was in all of the vaccines. So that I could really understand what I as putting into my child's body.
Then I spoke with his pediatrician, not about his medical views, but about what he did for his family. I also spoke with DH's Uncle who is a pediatrician in another country about each vaccine and what he thought was necessary, what wasn't, what he didn't understand, and what was given in other places other than the US. I researched reactions, and the percentages that they tend to effect children, before making all decisions.
Some he has received on a normal schedule. Some on a delayed schedule. Some not at all and one that I was ok with after research, that is a series of 3 shots, but he had an allergic reaction to, so he only received one dose and will not receive the others.
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@MsLipGloss: @Mrsbells: my reply is above.
I will not allow for myself to be attacked, nor will I share my sons exact medical information.
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I think it's irresponsible for someone to make a less than fully informed choice, regardless of side. We should all own and be aware of what we are choosing to put in our body, and especially the body of our children who cannot decide for themselves. If you aren't, and you're choosing to vax then you are just as irresponsible as someone choosing not to based on a Jenny McCarthy interview.
For us, there simply isn't enough long term effects data to be comfortable vaccinating. As of right now all of our children are more likely to get & die from cancer (the #1 cause of disease related death for children) than any vaccine preventable disease, and vaccines have no information on their effects in attributing to or possibly causing such disease, limited environmental toxin exposure is important to us for the immediate and long term health of our family (amongst many other aspects in our choice.)
Watching a child suffer through sickness, regardless of kind, is horrible... we all have to choose which we think is more likely and how we'd like to avoid them.
And I 100% agree with @junebugmama: there are informed and uniformed parents on both side of the fence, just because one who is informed chooses not to comply with common practice doesn't make them irresponsible.
ETA: I was only answer the original OP's question on my thoughts of responsible vs. irresponsible. I'm not getting into a debate for either side nor discussing why we've chosen our side any further.
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@MamaMoose: I agree with you, pretty spot on. I can't imagine making it a mandated thing, but it really worries me that unvaccinated children may come in contact with my own, just by him going to school. I don't even leave my dog unvaccinated, so I can't imagine leaving my own child so.
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@junebugmama: I hope my query didn't come off as an attack. I was just asking the question with the goal being that you would feel comfortable sharing if that's what you wanted to do.
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@junebugmama: thanks, that's interesting. It sounds like you made an informed decision, which is the most I think we can ask out of anyone. I really appreciate you being willing to answer
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@runsyellowlites: "For us, there simply isn't enough long term effects data to be comfortable vaccinating." This is true of many routine medical practices, including oral contraceptives for women (and many other regular medications as well).
"As of right now all of our children are more likely to get & die from cancer (the #1 cause of disease related death for children) than any vaccine preventable disease . . . " This is true because it has been the norm to vaccinate (for the past 50 years or so) . . . so the masses have been protected, making other anomalies like cancer statistically more likely. The more people who choose to not vaccinate their children will cause a shift in these numbers . . . so that the numbers for deaths from, say, whooping cough will surpass the numbers for deaths from cancer. ETA: . . . Because whooping cough is a communicable disease, whereas cancer is not.
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@mediagirl: I also live in the PNW. I'm a part of a local FB mom group (I don't participate, but I can see their posts in my feed) and it drives me crazy when I see how many people don't vaccinate their kids. They never have any credible sources to back up their decisions.
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@MsLipGloss: exactly. People may choose not to vaccinate and their kid may be fine because of herd immunity and everyone else being responsible enough to vaccinate. But every time another person makes the choice not to vaccinate it raises the chances of contracting these things for EVERYONE. As there are some individuals who legit cannot vaccinate due to medical reasons, they desperately rely on herd immunity and everyone else doing their part to keep us all safe.
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@MsLipGloss: While I could see a rise in cases & deaths, I find it incredibly unlikely they would surpass cancer... Especially with the capabilities of modern medicine in treating the symptoms of these diseases, something that isn't substantially happening in cancer treatments. Not to mention these numbers focus more on deaths from cancer & doesn't take in those who get, but survive.
As I said though, their lack of information on long term risk was just one of the factors in our decision.
ETA: I think it's worth it to include that DH is a cancer survivor & both my grandfathers died as a result of cancer (one the cancer itself & the other as a lack of recovery from treatment). This is more real to us than some other risks & possibilities so it's important that we, as a family, do what we can to avoid attributing factors.
FWIW our pedi was completely okay with us not vax'ing, even told us that in the case of whopping cough P might have a long lasting cough but with modern medicine would run low risk for a serious/fatal outcome, that's IF she got it. He had issues with other parenting perspectives we had. lol
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I feel I put my son at risk (very small, but still) by vaccinating, and that's a really hard thing to do, but it was a risk I'm willing to take for the greater good of our society. It bothers me that some people count on others to vaccinate so they don't have to; I think it's abdicating an important responsibility.
Fine by me if people don't want to vaccinate for some of the less deadly diseases like chicken pox and hep b, or if they have a history of allergic reactions to vaccines, or if they want to space them out a bit. But in general, to rely on other people shouldering the (small) risk of vaccinating so you don't have to is not cool.
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I think it is horribly irresponsible not to vaccinate and I wish that everyone would do it.
@junebugmama: Thanks for sharing your rationale. I don't particularly agree with it, but I appreciate the insight. I hope you don't feel attacked, seems like evryone here is just curious to know why people choose not to vax.
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This issue inflames me to the point that it's difficult for me to have a respectful discussion about it.
So I'll just say we vaccinate 100% and on schedule and leave it at that.
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Well. I DO think it's important to look at each vaccine individually and make a decision with your provider.. Did I think my newborn needed a hep B shot immediately after exiting the womb? No. Why do they recommend this? Because there is a high risk of maternal-to-child transmission of hep B and a lot of pregnant moms don't know their status, so many hospitals just figure vaccinate them and protect everyone. I am hep B negative and have received all 3 doses of the vaccine and have seroconverted, so I declined the shot for LO. I didn't get mine until college and frankly don't think she needs hers until then either, but she ended up getting it as part of combination vaccine with another shot at her 4 month visit.
What about rotavirus? There used to be a high risk of intussusception, and the vaccine was actually pulled off the market for a few years. I asked my ped what the latest data is now before I agreed to give this one to her (it has been reforumlated and the risk is closed to nil now). Because she started daycare at 3.5 months old, the benefits seemed to outweigh the risks.
Yes, LO is being vaccinated mostly on schedule (save for hep B), but I don't think there's anything wrong with looking at each vaccine individually.... It's not necessarily an all or nothing question.
OP, to answer your question, for things like measles, pertussis, and flu that are highly contagious through means other than bloodborne transmission (like hep B again), yes I think it's important to do my part to both protect LO from a potentially deadly infection AND not further detract from the herd immunity. Those to me are no-brainers.
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Everyone has a right to make a decision for their own child's health. the thing I do not like though is how other people's decisions could affect my child. With that we 100% vaccinate.
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@runsyellowlites: How do you reconcile your decision not to vaccinate with the advances in medicine that allow for cancer prevention via vaccination? One example being the gardasil (or other similar) vaccinations against the papilloma virus that has been proven to cause cervical and other types of cancer?
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We vaccinate our children fully and on-time. Working in public health, it's an issue I feel strongly about.
Funny story though - my brother had a terrible reaction to a vaccine in the early 80's and so my mom chose to only give me the polio vaccine. I went through all of grade school and into college with only that one vaccine - we lived in Virginia and signed the exemption. I didn't get fully vaccinated until I went to Peru in 2010.
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@lindseykaye: For us, the prevention measures specifically mentioned are ones that the immediate risks outweigh the long term benefits (other countries have actually pulled their recommendation for this vaccination due to these risks, they do still administer it to those that want it, but are not widely recommending like we are in the US).
As for modern medicine & cancer overall, we actually would seek other options in the case of cancer for our immediate family. Even with DH's history we really don't agree with the majority of advances pertaining to cancer. People die or have long term chronic illness as a result of treatments just like the cancer their being treated for. That's really a completely different topic of discussion though.
ETA: A funny thing though is the oncologists office I worked in around the time that this vaccine was coming out (at the time and shortly after) were quite against it. I'm sure with the commonality that has changed, but I still find it funny.
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@junebugmama: AGREED! Unfortunately, selective/delayed vaxxers get the short end of the stick on either side of the debate. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. *pity party, lol*
And herd immunity didn't play into my choice to skip or delay certain immunizations. Ok, so maybe a little bit on the delayed part. But not the ones we skipped entirely. And yes, while I don't like to see my kids sick and we work really hard to keep strong immune systems around here, I'm ok with staying home (ya know, being responsible and not exposing my sick kids to others) and dealing with the illnesses we've decided not to vaccinate for.
But I'm sorry my kids are so scary.
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@runsyellowlites: Very interesting, thank you for taking the time to explain your thoughts on this! I was extra curious especially because I expect that more and more "cancer vaccines" will become available as the research allows for their development. And I expect more and more people who are not vaccinating for communicable diseases to maybe have a more difficult time accepting/denying these kinds of vaccines.
And yes, it is very sad that the treatments for cancer can (and do) cause deaths. I lost my uncle just last week after a two year battle against cancer. He eventually elected to undergo several rounds of experimental treatments that were able to give him more time with his family, but that were very hard on him physically. -
The fact is the average person doesn't really understand stats/percentages, vaccination make-up, etc. I'm not trying to insult anyone's intelligence but i've seen people on (other) message boards talking numbers and it makes no sense at all. Despite the research, it all comes down to interpretation...which may not be correct. I would rather rely on doctors than myself to tell me what these numbers mean.
We vaccinate 100%. LO even got the hep b shot because my grandma has it, and i wanted her to be able to interact with her without any worries.
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@lindseykaye: I'm so sorry to hear about your uncle.
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@junebugmama: Your posts on this thread totally confuse me. You volunteered information that you were not "vaccinating 100%"and I was curious and asked for more details and then you respond with "I will not allow for myself to be attacked, nor will I share my sons exact medical information."
I don't get it.
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@Mrsbells: my statement about not being attacked was not necessarily directed at anyone. However, this isn't my first rodeo with a vax post. Previously, they have gotten ugly and rather than waiting for it to happen, I wanted to be clear and direct. I replied with the reasons why I made the decisions about vaxing, however giving you the exact specifics of which ones I chose and or opted out of, I think is too personal. It's something I'm choosing not to share.
I don't understand what is confusing about that at all.
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I live in an area where many parents choose not to vaccinate. While I don't agree with this, I do understand making different choices when it comes to my child's medical care and vaccines.
We are working with a delayed vaccination schedule, which we discussed with our pediatrician. We are not fully vaccinating, but are vaccinating against the big ones. We chose to skip Hep B, and probably won't get the chicken pox, flu, or HPV vaccine. The recent breakouts of whooping cough is concerning because I think people start to think these diseases are not a risk and don't vaccinate, which is dangerous for all.
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@junebugmama: I will be sure not to ask again, so you don't feel attacked.
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@FarmWifeGina: I don't think it's unreasonable for people to be concerned about having their children interact with unvaccinated children. It's very possible your children would be contagious before they were showing symptoms that would prompt you to keep them home. That doesn't mean we think your children are "scary", just that we have concerns about the risks that your choice can present for those around you. I don't really understand the mentality of being offended that people would have those concerns. You made the choice not to vaccinate and that's well with in your right, but I think you have to be willing to deal with the consequences of how others choose act in light of your choice.
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My son was born abroad, so while we were living there, he was vaxed according to the published schedule of that country, under the assumption that he would attend school there.
When we relocated, we had to provide our vax data to the ped's office. We were then advised to "switch" over to the schedule for the US, specifically the state in which we resided. We agreed to this, because we plan to use public schools and it is important to me to be up to date for the country in which we are residing. After all, it's not our plan to send him back to the country where he was born to attend Kindergarten. So using the schedule or information of another country's vax program is a bit difficult for me to reconcile.
If you plan on homeschooling, then fine, but for attendance in public schools, I believe you should follow the state specific immunization schedules.
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@Mrsbells: there's no need to be snarky.
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@MamaMoose: I think what gets me is the righteous indignation: "Well, MY children will NEVER be around children who aren't fully vaccinated!" It feels like more of a, "We'll show them!" attitude. But I find it rather ironic that those who are staunchly pro-vaccine and pretty much seem to think that they're the end all, be all, don't completely trust them to protect their children. Which makes me think it comes down to the principle of the thing than actually taking the risk into consideration. And I say this as a mom who's kids ARE vaccinated against all of the "big" things and who has no qualms about letting her kids hang out with completely unvaccinated children. If I had that attitude, my kids would never be with their cousins or their younger aunts and uncles. <------I'm the crazy one in my family who chooses to at least partially vaccinate.
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@MsLipGloss: I just wanted to add that in the developing world, infectious causes are certainly #1... because those kids aren't getting vaccines! If you look at trends in the US, before vaccination infectious disease was the number one cause. It's a pretty clear causal effect that vaccines became standard practice and infectious disease became less prevelant. Genius!
So in essence, members who are saying these diseases aren't that prevelant and don't need to vaccinate are saying that they are relying on herd immunity.
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@FarmWifeGina: I don't want my kids playing with non-vaccinated kids because I don't feel comfortable with it. It is purely based on science not principle. It isn't about showing them anything, I just don't see the purpose in doing something that could ultimately compromise their health.
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@Mrs. Jacks: As someone of West African origin with deep roots there, this subject is very near and dear to my heart. One need only look at the awful effects of polio on children in Northern Nigeria because their families have somehow come to believe that it is against their religion to accept Western vaccines from evil pharma companies to appreciate just how big of a role vaccines play in our well being as a society today.
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@plantains: I'm not trying to be rude, but purely curious, do you ask every parent, of every child you come in contact with?
We attend playgroups and probably come in contact with 100 kids weekly. No one has ever asked me
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@plantains: I don't want my kids around non-vaccinated kids either. And luckily, I don't have friends/acquaintances with parents who don't believe in vaccinations so I don't need to ask that question.
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