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We vaccinate. I'm not going to judge anyone who doesn't.
However what I'm really curious about for those who don't vaccinate, do you travel internationally? We don't live in the US and we travel internationally quite a lot. I would never go to the places we go/plan on going in the future without vaccinating.
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@allison: Vaccines don't alter your DNA, they create immunity by exposing you to antigens which your body produces antibodies to. Once your body has made an antibody once, it becomes much easier to make those antibodies again, so your body fights off the intruding virus. We don't have very many viral treatments, so vaccination is an important part of our arsenal.
As for older adults, it is correct that even if their immunity has waned, they can easily mount an immune response and deal with the infection. The scary part is when an adult who's immunity has waned passes something like pertussis or a virus on to an unimmunized child.
Baby immune systems are quite effective and handle vaccines just fine. I'm not sure what literature data to the contrary comes from, though it is a commonly cited concern... but the medical literature shows that baby immune systems handle their vaccine load beautifully.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/parents-guide/downloads/parents-guide-part4.pdf
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It's so interesting that parental choices sometimes get more heated than politics!
But as someone who vaccinated, I don't mind my children interacting with non-vacinnated children. We would be homebodies if we didn't (in the Seattle area? No body vaccinates. I get, "how could you?" from a lot of my crunchy, young mom friends). I think as long as a parent makes an INFORMED decision, they are not an irresponsible parent. Although, I do see how choosing not to vaccinate changes society and it makes me worried.
As far as the article goes, I don't think whopping cough is something to mess with. I had it as a 4 month old and nearly died...
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I don't think anyone's opinions change with these kinds of threads. I guess sharing info is good but it Always gets controversial!
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It's great that both sides of a discussion can share their views... but we ask that everyone be respectful. Just a reminder/request to avoid personal attacks and snark! Thanks...
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@Mrs. Jacks: Infant immune systems are not mature. They are developing, and I don't feel comfortable exposing my developing baby to the plethora of vaccinations that the CDC would like me to.
FTR, I don't consider spiking a temp, sleeping an abnormally long time, and knots/soreness as "handling vaccinations beautifully". Just my personal view.
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@allison: Please read the link I provided if you get a chance
Infants are exposed to far more antigens in the course of every day living than they ever do with vaccines. I certainly do realize that the immune system isn't fully mature, but it's plasticity is what makes it strong. Babies come primed to make antibodies, because they most certainly need that ability as soon as they enter the birth canal!
I would just hope that you would understand the mechanisms at work before making a decision based on faulty logic. If you *believe* that their immune system can't handle vaccines, that's very different than the plethora of data that speak to the contrary.
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@Mrs. Jacks: Well said!
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@Mrs. Jacks: I do make a lot of parenting decisions based on my gut instinct, after reading research. I'm sorry that you don't see that as a valid tool.
"I would just hope that you would understand the mechanisms at work before making a decision based on faulty logic." --This seems a bit unfair to me. I feel like you're assuming that every person that vaccinates on schedule understands exactly what those vaccines are doing to/in the body. No, I do not have all the answers, and I don't claim to. But until I feel comfortable with it, I won't vaccinate. That's something I can't un-do, and, again, a decision I do not take lightly.
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Do you know what the best and most natural "vaccine" any baby can receive? It's colostrum. 30ml's contain 22 million antibodies. If I was to say that choosing not to breast feed was "irresponsible", or that I didn't want my children to play with formula fed children because they have a higher rate of getting sick, people would lose their minds.
Every parenting choice is the right of that parent and even when someone goes against what others may view as "common", we shouldn't always point our fingers and throw terms around without fully understanding why
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@IcebergMom: I will respectfully disagree. As someone who has struggled very, very much so with whether to fully vax, delay or skip altogether... I have found that although these types of threads tend to be a little offputting at times (often due to the judgmental nature), most of the time they have been extremely informative and helpful in finding valid information I may have missed during my own research. I usually don't participate because I dislike controversial topics, however I always read them avidly and enjoy the information was both sides to help me form my own opinions
I would say I am very much in the middle and don't identify heavily with either side. Because most people I know personally IRL are very anti-vax I have relied on a lot of HBers and studies they find to be my "pro-vax" influence - everyone here presents a lot of compelling information on BOTH sides and I appreciate all the input. (not to say I don't research on my own, I definitely do!!)
I was also coming here to post this. I found this article by Dr. Sears extremely informative and helpful. Definitely one of my hesitations with vaccinating is the potential negative side effects and amount of chemicals in each does - but Dr. Sears does a great job providing information on how to "prep" a child's body to help build immune system to deter any negative side effects. The part about probiotics is especially helpful!
Just thought I'd share for those who are worried about negative side effects
http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/vaccines/boost-your-childs-immune-system
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@allison: "I feel like you're assuming that every person that vaccinates on schedule understands exactly what those vaccines are doing to/in the body." I don't understand exactly how vaccines work, but then again I don't have a background in science or medicine, nor do I have a degree in medicine, let alone pediatric medicine (as I believe Mrs. Jacks does, as she is a pediatrician). What I do have is a whole lot of faith in people who DO have advanced degrees and actually know a lot more about this stuff than I could ever hope to have. And I also have enough understanding of how it works to agree with pediatricians that vaccinations are the right way to go. I don't think you really need to 100% understand all the ins and outs of the science to follow a doctor's recommendation because they are the ones who really know what they are talking about. If you're going AGAINST doctor's recommendations though, I think you need to have a really thorough top to bottom understanding of the science and research to make that decision that contradicts the person who spend 8+ years studying medicine.
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@Mae: Thank you. You took the words out of my mouth.
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@Mrs. Pen: good! I am so glad to be wrong.
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@Mae: I respectfully disagree. That "faulty logic" Mrs. Jacks referred to was given to me by my brother, a respected family doctor. Doctors are not infallible, and they have opinions.
I don't think I "need" to have anything to make a decision. That's the beauty of free will.
I really don't care to argue about this any further. I appreciate those that are not 100% pro-CDC schedule speaking up. I know there are several of us on HB, and it can be really intimidating and frustrating to comment on a thread like this. As FarmWifeGina said to me, we don't all have to agree!
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@junebugmama: As someone who was thankfully able to give her baby colostrum, but couldn't medically maintain a breastmilk supply, I don't really think providing my daughter with nourishment in the only way I can aligns with someone who opts out of vaccinating against deadly diseases. I know you're making a comparison for the sake of argument, and I can appreciate that, but I feel it's a little far fetched. If we're going to use that logic, we might as well start speaking to a diet rich in processed food, which does nothing to boost immunity. It's shaky ground, y'know?
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@deerylou: I have to agree with you, and also point out that, while colostrum contains millions of antibodies, it doesn't contain antibodies for many of the specific diseases that threaten public health.
I also wanted to add that, although I am pro-vaccinating, it doesn't mean I plan to blindly do whatever the doctor tells me. I'll still ask questions about/research each vaccine my future children receive, because it's important to be well-informed.
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@deerylou, and a full night sleep and people who don't exercise. That all boosts immunity, too. Not sure it keeps you from contracting polio or measles or rubella
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@Mrs. Pen: @IcebergMom: Coming from the other side, it's threads like this that help me identify with the reasons that people I know may choose not to or to delay vaccinations. I have none of their hesitations and it is difficult for me to always understand their point of view on somthing I feel strongly about. Hearing from multiple people, who all may come to their decisions from different places is really beneficial to me in knowing how to talk to those I love in real life, hopefully without offending them, about something very personal.
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We have delayed a couple just a little, and elected to skip a couple that we believe, after researching, aren't necessary. We have also spoken at length with our pediatrician about each one, and he's been a great guide helping us determine which really are quite important to have. We do vaccinate on schedule for dangerous diseases. For example, pertussis in the state of WA is no joke, so for our DD, the TDaP was right on schedule, and we also each got it ourselves, and made family members do the same, since the risk is actually higher that an adult whose vaccine has worn off will transmit whooping cough.
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@erinpye: although our doctor is in support of whatever we choose, she has mostly avoided to discuss them with us - I imagine for fear or liability which is truly a shame! I would love more unbiased information from her. It's hard to find a doctor that will discuss it in length with you.
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@deerylou: It's not far fetched and actually some of the antibodies to prevent certain diseases we vax for are in, colostrum and breast milk. It differs for every mama.
I also think comparing colostrum to nourishment is also far fetched. It is not just "food" or "nourishment" it is considered in the medical field as babies first vaccine. Sleep, food, exercise, etc is not the same as colostrum or breast milk. It does not provide half of the things that bm does.
I won't win this battle on either side. However the WHO and NIH say that people not breastfeeding is a "public health issue" which is the same term the APA uses for vaccines. Here in the US breast feeding is still considered a taboo subject to tell a Mama they have to do, even though in most cases it has bigger benefits than any vaccine ever will.
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@Mrs. Pen: It really is! There are only 2 doctors here that will accept patients that don't 100% vax on schedule and the only info they give is to vaccinate, I couldn't even get our pedi to discuss the inserts I read.
Those providers that don't comply with common practice have even been pushed out of our community, or those that used to accept the parents right to choose have been pressured by the community to stop and so they have.
It's sad that getting unbiased information is so incredibly difficult! (I find most of the info used to be very much of a conflict of interest)
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@junebugmama: Perhaps you misread my comment, but I was comparing formula to nourishment. It's the way in which I feed my daughter as, despite all my best efforts, time, and money, my own biology did not allow me to maintain a supply. I'm already fully aware of the amazing benefits of colostrum and breastmilk, and was happily planning to EBF. However, vaccinating my child was a choice, while supplementing with formula was, unfortunately, not. My own mother was exclusively breastfeed through her second year of life, and still came down with polio. Twice. A vaccine it was not. Vaccines have kept people from perishing from ancient diseases before formula was even on the market, so I'm not sure I can speak to it being an illness magnet.
Look, I'm not looking to argue or ridicule, especially not about breastfeeding. I started this thread, seeking constructive ideas of how we could protect fragile populations in a country that is becoming more and more split on the vaccination front. I'm not sure that there has been much conversation about that, and if this thread continues to offend and enrage people, @MrBee: can totally go ahead and close it, as that certainly was not my intention.
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Ooh, this is a juicy thread!! I love that we can debate stuff like this without it turning to a slanging match!
*EDIT - in the time it took me to think about this issue and compose my answer, it turned a bit b1tchy. Come on everyone, play nice, this is such an interesting topic!*
Personally, I'm in the 100% vax camp. Actually, make that 120% because I intend to pay privately to have DD vaccinated against chicken pox too, even though that's not specifically recommended in the UK. If I can prevent my child getting sick, why wouldn't I? As for the recommended vaccines, they're for childhood KILLERS - I'm not taking any risks whatsoever with those diseases. I worship the ground my daughter will eventually walk on!
I really, truly don't understand the reasons people choose not to vaccinate. I do wish that the Bees who have decided not to vaccinate would share - I've Googled it but I can only find unreliable sources like the article listed earlier and research which has subsequently been discredited (like the autism connection).
That said, I'd have no problem allowing my children to play with @FarmWifeGina: 's hypothetically unvaccinated children - after all, that's why I've vaccinated, right? So my child doesn't get the disease! In fact, my daughter, right now, would be more of a risk to Farmwifegina's kids as she has just received a live rotavirus vaccine! She's super germy right now (and is full of awesome anti-bodies, hopefully)!
Of course, when it comes to the herd immunity issue, I feel all citizens have a duty to vaccinate. It's for the greater good. BUT, if you asked me to harm my child for the greater good, I'd tell you to bog off - so I understand why parents whose research has led them to believe that vaccines are harmful would choose not to vaccinate, even if it may potentially put other people at risk.
@runsyellowlites: Now I'm going to call you on something you said (and you're one of my favourite bees, you know that, so this is said with 100% respect). I don't agree that people who choose to vaccinate without doing their research but are relying on the recommendation of the majority of the medical community are irresponsible. Not everyone can understand this stuff or indeed wants to. I like to think that I've got a good head on my shoulders (and an A grade A-level in biology) but I'm not a doctor and I cannot in a million years claim to fully understand pathology/epidemiology - and so I rely on doctors to give me good advice. That's okay, I think.
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@Cherrybee: I think the only problem with that is some doctors, not all, are not forth coming about possible reactions (short or long term). Like I mentioned & have explained before, when I tried discussing some of the risks I read in the insert with our pedi his response was "Where did you read that?" and when I explained it was in the insert and I was concerned about it he brushed it off. If providers would give ALL the info so parents could make INFORMED choices (you cannot do that without all sides) then I'd be 100% for solely looking to your provider. Infact I think we should be able to do that.. it's what they went to school for and what we pay them for. Realistically though, we know in all areas of medicine it's not quite like that most of the time.
Making a choice without being informed is what is irresponsible in my book and not even informed consent, which is needed to administer a vaccine to a patient.
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I prefer to stay out of the more controversial threads but I'm curious - if you make the choice to not vaccinate your child are you vaccinated? I'm not arguing for or against vaccinations. I'm simply curious.
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@junebugmama: I'm all about breastfeeding and it does provide great antibodies. But that's much different than a vaccine. A vaccine allows for 'memory cells' to develop that can respond to the virus later by making antibodies. In breast milk only the antibodies are transferred, so while they can fight off current infections they aren't allowing 'memory cells' to develop that will produce antibodies and ward off infections later in life when the child is not breastfeeding.
Plus, some antibodies are going to be produced by the mom in such low #s that breastmilk won't be very effective until the mom has been reexposed to a virus and had a chance to mount an immune response at which point the baby is already sick. I breastfed my LO till she was 2 and she never had a fever (other than when she was teething) until I stopped, I'm def a big proponent, but I would not rely on breastmilk alone.
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@swedishfish: I am, that wasn't my choice though...well except the hep B vaccine that I chose to get as an adult since I worked as a phlebotomist, figured I was at alot higher risk that just walking down the street. lol.
G is also vaccinated, on a delayed schedule and really only because I thought I legally had to for him to be in school. It was before I had researched them.
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@Cherrybee: Lol, yes, hypothetically unvaccinated, baha.
@swedishfish: I'm not an anti-vaxxer, but I was raised in a family that became anti-vaxxing as the years went on. I believe I was fully vaccinated through my school shots (I'm the oldest, so I got way, way more stuff than my youngest sibling). After that, my family actually moved to a third-world country for nearly a year, so I remember getting more shots for that, as well as a poke or two for certain seasons while we were there, but I'm not sure what or if my parents chose to skip any of them. Other than eating a yucky mango, I don't remember getting sick while out of the country. @lamariniere: This kind of relates to your question. My parents did vaccinate before traveling and I would also, for diseases common in that region of the world.
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@lamariniere: If I'm not mistaken, the vaccination schedules are different in the US than other countries. I think that the US tends to be more aggressive when it comes to vaccinations than most countries. Comparing schedules between other nations is of interest to me for sure. I read recently that Japan banned the HPV shot!
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@Mrs. Pen: They didn't ban it, but stopped recommending it like we do here in the US. It's more of a, "Well if you really want it I'll give it too you, but I consider the risks to be high and think it's safer to avoid".
Crazy how here we're pushing for MORE adolescents to get it...
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@Mrs. Pen: What was the reason it was banned? I'm so endlessly thankful I received the vaccine. A friend of mine has cervical cancer, sparked from HPV. She's been married for over 10 years, has two children, and got a pap every three years, as recommended by her doctor (I still get one every year, cause I want to stay on top of it). She never received the vaccine, and hates to think her cancer could have been avoided.
Can someone point me towards some literature outlining what dangers that specific vaccine poses?
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@deerylou: Severe systemic reaction was the reason.
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@allison: I appreciate your viewpoint and certainly understand that you have every right to make a decision that might go against the preponderance of evidence. I just always find it helpful myself to challenge my own beliefs when I find myself very fixed on a gut instinct.
I'll give you an example. The AAP recommends no co-bedding. My gut instinct told me that co-bedding was going to work better for my family than forcing my daughter into a crib. I 100% know that the evidence disagrees with me and I know that as a pediatrician it would be better if I did things by the book, after all that's what I recommend to patients! However, I made sure that I could quote the risk numbers and the ways in which I could minimize those risks. We co-bedded without blankets or pillows, never impaired and of course there is no smoking in our house. I took a calculated risk and I cop to it. But never would I say that the evidence says something different. I am entitled to my own opinion, but not my own facts
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I haven't read through this thread, but Penn and Teller have an awesome video (with harsh language, so I'm not going to link) on vaccines.
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@Mrs. Jacks: Was totally in the same boat as far as co-bedding. I understood that our pedi didn't endorse it, and I read the literature against it, but take every precaution necessary to ensure our experienxe is as safe as possible.
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@Mrs. Pen: @runsyellowlites: Gardasil came out when I was in high school. It's the one vaccine I refused and the only one I know I will refuse for C. There is just simply not enough research done on the long term effects for me to be comfortable with it. Plus, the way that it was rushed out and then pushed SO HARD really skeeves me out. Gardasil is serious bad news. Just google it. It's all out there.
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I received Gardasil on my own accord while I was in college. I admit to not researching it thoroughly at the age of 19, but at the time, it was promoted by a GP I did, and still do, trust. I suppose I am thankful I received the vaccine, as I am one of the very few women in my circle of friends that hasn't had HPV (and no, my circle of friends are not particularly promiscuous, in the least). I'm lucky that I did not experience any adverse side effects, and do think it has contributed to my good cervical health. I am hopeful that there is more studies done on Gardasil in the near future, as the evidence against the vaccine does worry me, and makes me very hesitant to allow my daughter to receive it. It would be wonderful if an alternative vaccine is released, as I want to do all I can to ensure that DD's reproductive health is protected. HPV is a very real, very scary epidemic, and condoms and abstinence until marriage do not adequately eliminate your risk, which makes it even more worrisome.
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@runsyellowlites: I think that's a real shame that he/she wasn't able to discuss this with you properly. It's one of the problems we have in this area - some of the people who are educated to such a level as to take these jobs (which they thoroughly deserve, might I add) do not have the social skills required to have these kinds of conversations with regular people. If only Mrs Jacks was everyone's ped!
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