-
I'm so torn on Gardasil for my LO. It hurt like a mofo when I got it and the second one made me violently ill for 24 hours. But... My SIL chose not to get it and now has HPV.
-
We vaccinate fully, and it's absolutely no surprise that the areas/populations where people have recently decided to not vaccinate are the areas where outbreaks of disease are happening (here in the US, in Europe, etc.).
We have such a short memory here in the US and Europe, living insulated in comparative wealth and comfort from the reality of disease that most of the rest of the world faces.
I have yet to hear any convincing, strong argument against vaccination, and this thread is no exception.
-
@Mrs. Jacks: "I am entitled to my own opinion, but not my own facts" I love that! Great thing to remember
I've been vaccinated with Gardasil and will probably (following research of whatever the current iteration of it is in 13 years from now) vaccinate my child(ren) as well. The serious reactions from it still seem to be extremely rare, whereas HPV is an epidemic. Most of the backlash I've personally seen against Gardasil is from religious groups thinking that giving kids this vaccine goes against God because it gives them permission to have premarital sex. That isn't a valid reason to not vaccinate in my opinion, so until I see more evidence that the risk of vaccination is higher than the risk of HPV I'll plan to vaccinate.
-
@Mrs. Pen @allison @junebugmama @runsyellowlites -- just wanted to say thanks for chiming in -- I can't imagine it's easy to jump into a thread where the vast majority is vehemently against a decision you made.
-
@yoursilverlining: I'm curious to see if the outbreaks (there are sure to be more) will change the tides so to speak. I feel like it would be a lot harder to continue not vaccinating when/if someone you know has had the disease themselves or lost someone to it.
@farmwifegina I know you said you're just poking ant hills but I don't think it's elitism at all. I've found myself twice recently being lectured about the dangers of vaccines by (seemingly) middle class, stay at home moms.
-
@Mrs. Pen: I can only speak of the two other countries we have lived in with DS. We moved to France just after DS turned one and their vax schedule is extremely similar to the US. We moved to Austria right before DS turned 2 and again, when we compared the their vax schedule to the French and US, it is also very similar. In both countries the peds that we saw recommended following the regular local schedule. (I now have to keep an excel sheet). The only major change I noticed is that a few of the vax are not combined in the same way.
I'm not too concerned about vaccinations in general in Western Europe as it seems that they follow schedules very similar to the US. However, with the flux of people traveling in and out of Europe from all over the world, you just never know where they have been and what they could be carrying. Likewise, we vacationed in a 3rd world country this year and will likely travel to another one next year. I feel that exposure in airports, air planes, and the country itself warrants following the vaccination schedule. Better safe than sorry.
Edit: I asked DH about the vaccination debate in France and he said it is basically non-existant. The vast majority of people vaccinate unless there are grave health issues.
Here is a fun tool to compare vaccination schedules in different European Countries. This is from the European Center for Disease and Prevention Control.
-
@Mrs. Pen: not really, at least in my experience. As posted before me, the combinations are different and there isn't the ability to get those combined shots as separate, single ones. So if you want to get the mmr in 3 shots, you can't.
I think you have to follow the schedule for the country in which you reside. Looking at the schedules of other countries is fine, but unless you plan to move there, shouldn't be the basis of your decision.
-
@looch: I totally agree with not using different country charts for making decisions. It is interesting to look at, but each country has its own problems and risk factors.
-
@lamariniere: especially the refugee/migrant/asylum populations.
-
I didn't read everyone's responses, but *I* don't want to get whooping cough, polio, mumps, or any other of the diseases that are preventable by vaccines. It turned out in my blood work at the beginning of this pregnancy that my titer for Rubella came up neg, so I need a booster after I deliver. I don't want to contract Rubella, so I'm going to get it. I'm not relying on herd immunity...I'm relying on my own immunity and the immunity of my family. Maybe these diseases aren't "that bad" anymore, but they're still not something that I want my kid to suffer through...or myself. So, we vaccinate.
-
I just wanted to throw some math into this discussion for fun!
Vaccines cannot 100% protect our children, but they limit their risk at contracting something. So let's say that I vaccinate my child again X disease, which is highly contagious and has a 100% transfer rate (just so the math is easy). He now only has a 1% chance of contracting X disease from someone.
If he plays with a child who isn't vaccinated against X disease and that child comes into contact with X disease, my son still has a 1% chance of contracting it from his playmate.
Now let's say my son plays with a child who IS vaccinated against X disease. Now BOTH children only have a 1% chance of getting sick from X disease. So TOGETHER, their protection is multiplied.
1% x 1% = 0.01% <-- they now only have a 0.01% chance of contracting X disease from each other because they are BOTH protected against X disease!
Math is fun!
-
@runsyellowlites: you can look back through history to see that it is not true infectious diseases (vaccine preventable diseases) would not surpass cancer.
". At the beginning of the 20th century, the leading causes of child mortality were infectious diseases, including diarrheal diseases, diphtheria, measles, pneumonia and influenza, scarlet fever, tuberculosis, typhoid and paratyphoid fevers, and whooping cough."
-
@jedeve: I understand the rates at which infectious disease, not just "vaccine preventable diseases", used to claim lives. I still have trouble comparing those rates to the possibilities of today though considering the many many many advances in modern medicine, daily hygiene, and even how we live different (ie. not in tenement buildings with overcrowding or clean water systems), all of which would have also attributed to the higher death rates in the early 1900's. I just think there are a lot of considerations that would attribute to the spread of a disease, how it's managed, and it's death rate... I'm sure we'd all agree that the early 1900's to where we are in these things in the 2000's would, or atleast should, make a huge difference.
@Dandelion: <<I'm not relying on herd immunity...I'm relying on my own immunity and the immunity of my family>>
Exactly! We really try to boost our immune systems during the winter seasons, are mindful of any symptoms we might see and avoid others, and keep up with local outbreaks. I know our choices are on different ends, but no, I'm not "relying" on herd immunity to protect my children or myself..... considering all of the childhood vaccines I had would have waned by now.. maybe I should be glad I haven't gotten measles in the 10+ years I haven't been protected.. eek.
-
Wow - that took me an hour and a half to read through!
This is such a difficult topic for me. I spent years researching both sides before DD was born, and yet as it came down to being closer and closer to her being born, I still felt like I didn't know anything! I have such strong camps on each side in my life, both fueling their fire with credible and non-credible sources and articles.
Not debating the choice to vax or not, but being a pretty religious person, I don't understand how religion plays into it at all. It seems like an educational and personal decision to not vax. I could definitely be missing something though.
All I can do is pray I made the right decision based on all my research, and that I haven't scarred my child with vaccines. I ultimately decided that herd immunity is a better choice than avoiding the risks that can come from vaccinating.
I thank @runsyellowlites: @junebugmama: @farmwifegina: for adding their unpopular opinions to the discussion - different opinions, beliefs and thoughts help us all to think for ourselves, which is always important. ETA: That didn't sound very genuine - I'm seriously thankful to hear opposing beliefs!
@deerylou: You never got much input on your original question! What if NO ONE vaccinated because everyone ultimately decided the risk of vaccinations was too severe for their family? I have no idea. I can't even begin to think about outcomes like that.
-
@runsyellowlites: How could you have gotten measles in the last 10 years if you haven't been exposed to anyone with measles? There's only about 200 cases in the entire US/year nowadays, most likely you've never been around anyone with an active infection.
-
@Maysprout: We've had a few outbreaks down here, but my point is vaccine protection wanes over the years meaning at this point it's probably safe to say close to most of the adult population isn't protected against most of the vaccine preventable diseases they received immunization a for as a child, especially considering a few generations ago only a handful of these diseases were inoculated for. Think of the baby boomers who likely aren't protected anymore at all, pretty sure that would bring our 95% herd immunity way way down (and been down for decades).
Guess I could've included a long list of vaccine preventable diseases, but I just chose measles bc it stuck out at the moment.
-
@FarmWifeGina: I never called your child filthy or germy. Please don't make assumptions about me. I really do think that it is hypocritical for you to protect your public health decision and yet get upset that I choose to protect mine. That isn't playing devil's advocate, it is being determined to pigeon hole me and insinuate that I feel a certain way about something in spite of my assurances otherwise.
-
@swurlygurl: for the religious exemption I really think it's just a legal loophole. I am not certain what stances the major world religions have on immunizations, so I'd love to learn more!
-
@runsyellowlites: I'm a little confused by your examples because immunity does not wane to zero. You are still protected, just not 100%. So that logic just doesn't make sense for me.
-
@runsyellowlites: Just an FYI, I had my immunities checked when I got PG and didn't need a booster for anything they checked, which included measles, mumps, rubella, and chicken pox (though chicken pox I got the immunity the old fashioned way, not the vax). So you, and many other adults, may still have full immunity too from the vaccinations you received as a kid.
-
@looch: many people (FLDS for example) feel that faith should be enough protection.
-
@Mrs. Jacks: I know in most cases it doesn't immediately go to zero, but I would think if the immunity is said to last ~10 years that in that decades after that it would drop considerably over a lifetime... From my understanding a 95% immunity amongst the whole is needed. Even with partial immunity, wouldn't that be significantly below that threshold?...
-
@swurlygurl: @looch: vaccines aren't kosher
There was the issue that vaccines were created from aborted fetal tissue, making it a moral issue in many religions. It's also why some religions are against ones that are transmitted through sexual acts and what not.
To be honest, every person I know who got a religious waver for school, did not actually hold issue with any of the things mentioned above.
-
@junebugmama: Thanks - I always forget about the aborted fetal tissue.
-
@junebugmama: @Mrs. Jacks: Thanks for the info!
-
@runsyellowlites: That's not really true. Waning immunity is still different than never being exposed. While you may get more symptoms if it's been awhile since vaccination it's not going to be the same thing as if you've never been exposed.
-
@runsyellowlites: nope, not correct. There are significant declines, but your body always retains some of those memory cells. Better to have everyone fully vaccinated all the time, but you will be enjoying the benefits of your vaccines for years to come... And benefit from herd immunity. Here's a lay targeted article:
http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2013/08/low-state-vaccine-rates -
@looch: The first exmaples that come to mind are Jehova's Witnesses and Christian Scientists. Neither accepts many forms of modern medicine. Vaccines may be included in these beliefs - though I'm not sure the religions have a formal policy on them, I have heard that to receive/give them to your children would cause ostracization from other members even if not explicitly disallowed.
We have a large population of Hare Krishna's where I live and a few years ago there was a measles, then a severe chicken pox outbreak within/stemming from their community. They serve a vegetarian lunch at the local university campus weekly and it had a lot of people freaking out about exposure and risk. -
@Mrs. Jacks: What about the part of the population that wouldn't have ever gotten those vaccines, since we give SO many more than we used to. I thought the mmr, for example, didn't come around until the late 60's. My dad was born in 61.. I don't think he ever got this vax, along with alot of the standing population I'm sure.
I know with the article presented it said the immunity rates had dropped to 91%, based on their kindergarten class, not including the many that likely would've been unprotected or minimally protected for years.
I just really wonder about this number and how it accounts for the larger adult population that would have waning immunization protection or no immunization protection from their childhood b/c their age.
-
@runsyellowlites: I so appreciate the way you ate grappling wih this! :). I love how you want to be informed about your decisions.
Our parents all got measles and are now protected from tht. They were very lucky that they didn't get complications or die. Adults are meaningful transmitters (think grandparents and pertussis), but the most common transmission is kid to kid in daily activities such as school and play (for toddlers and above), while its family for infants. Does that answer the question?
-
@lindseykaye: That's a pretty bold statement and generalization to make about JWs when you don't even know what is their formal policy. JWs don't accept blood transfusions, but other than that they are completely within the mainstream of modern medicine. That they are ostracized for allowing their kids to be vaccinated is untrue, and not something their society advocates.
-
@Freckles: I think there was a period where most believed they were prohibited based on some of the publications, but that was lifted a long time ago... basically before they were widespread/common use so really I wouldn't even count it if it was infact prohibited.
-
@runsyellowlites: Yes, it appears that this ban was lifted 60 years ago so i don't think one can give examples from that time and say that it still applies today. Back then (before vacc campaigns), the general pop viewed vaccinations negatively because of lack of information and fear of the unknown.
-
I thought this was a really great post regarding vaccines. I couldn't agree with this woman more.
http://bostonwed-murakami.blogspot.com/2013/09/vaccination-laypersons-perspective_26.html
-
@mamamoose: excellent post.
-
@MamaMoose: Really great, article! Thanks for posting. I really liked what she said at the end: "I am unable to "link to" a lot of the sources provided to me for this blog entry. That's because you have to have to pay for a subscription to a lot of the major medical journals and other legitimate scientific sources - or make the big trek to your nearest medical school's library. In other words, a lot of the best stuff out there isn't available by googling the internet. And in fact, some of the very worst stuff is - check out this recent sting operation that found that some of the online journals will actually publish fake science for a fee."
-
@MamaMoose: outstanding article!!!
-
Have you guys read the comments, holy wow!
-
@looch: working my way through them
-
I read the article. Then I clicked the links about the babies who have died. And it just makes me ragey.
anyways, great article.
- Google Plus
- Stumbleupon
- Twitter
- Facebook
- Pinterest
- Favorite1
213 comments