A newly pregnant mom that is considering vbac came across & shared this story in a vbac support group I'm in. I thought I'd share it here (figure it'd make it on here at some point, might as well share now before someone else does).
http://www.mommyish.com/2012/04/10/vbac-risks-147/
What are your thoughts?
(Along with being greatly saddened at the tragedy I have some thoughts about the article but wanted to wait to share so as to not possibly give biased or swayed perspective to anyone else.)
blogger / wonderful cherry / 21628 posts
I'm sad for her. I wish her doctor would have listened when she said she wanted the section.
hostess / wonderful watermelon / 39513 posts
That is so sad....my friend had complications after attempting a VBAC last month. 
I know these are exceptions but I still have no interest in attempting a VBAC after 2 c-sections.
blogger / pineapple / 12381 posts
That's the risk with vbac. I see all the bad stuff so I'm a huge fan of erring on the side of intervention. Then again, I'd never have a baby at home either.
I think everyone has to be comfortable with their own risk benefit ratio. People need to be fully informed of the risks and percentage likelihoods and then their choice is up to them.
Lots of people would feel comfortable birthing at home. After seeing too many dead an disabled babies, I would not... It's one of those "to each her own" situations... But we all have to live with the results of those choices too.
persimmon / 1180 posts
This is definitely not a risk I'm willing to take. I won't be trying a vbac with my next baby.
coconut / 8305 posts
Here's my thoughts:
I think it's a really sad & tragic story. It's one of those things that regardless of delivery choice it's so devastating to hear of a mom or baby that dies... there are risks on both sides of the delivery fence & like my MW shared just this last week:
"Regardless of what is chosen & regardless of how small the risk might be, if you're in that 1% then for you the risk is 100%."
I do have to say that I have a certain despise for articles like this though... not b/c this woman's story shouldn't be shared, but b/c the light that it's shared in. Just this week a mom in our vbac group lost a very close friend during a scheduled cesarean for her breech baby. No mass media will ever hear about her story & no uproar will come with the fact that IF our providers were trained in breech delivery (which with a trained provider is found to be & considered safer than an ec) then she may not have died leaving behind a newborn, toddler, and now widower.
It also infuriates me that noone ever points out that risk of rupture for previous cesarean moms is something we carry THROUGHOUT the entirety of our pregnancies... as it's noted in her story she wasn't in labor, it really could have happened ANY time... even before the scheduled erc they are saying "would have" saved the baby (which happens for some moms out there too).
Just from the little bit of detail shared I found there to be some devastating error in her providers AND just like moms that have tragedy in cesarean, hospital, home, medicated, preterm, or post-date births often times a part of it comes down to not trusting intuition... She felt something was wrong & sadly instead of pushing for more monitoring or an u/s she listened to her provider without question & her baby died.
Our pastors actually almost lost their second child in a situation similar... She felt something was off so she went in to see her ob, they told her to just go home & rest... she obliged but has she was starting to nap she felt an urgency to go to the hospital. There they found their daughter was in distress from a placental abruption... had she not listened to her intuition their daughter surely would've died.
I feel so sad for this family though! It's horrible, it's tragic, but it happens on both sides of the fence... we just don't usually hear about the other side and that should be shared too!
blogger / pineapple / 12381 posts
@runsyellowlites: it's really easy to armchair quarterback, but we don't have the medical record or the medical wherewithal to interpret what the record shows.
Who knows what really happened. I mean I haven't done the background research to say that this is even a real story. If it is a true story it is tragic and telling that two lawyers wouldn't take the case.
I don't enjoy when people want to vilify medical professionals on both sides of things. We're bad because we over-intervene and we're bad because we don't intervene enough. We don't listen to women and we listen too much. Quite the catch-22 we're in, huh?
coconut / 8305 posts
@Mrs. Jacks: I'm sorry, I think my problem & point weren't conveyed properly...
My issue isn't really with her providers. I understand that in that place every doctor is going to have times they were doing what they felt was right & sound but things still had poor outcomes. Really I think if she felt something was really wrong she should have pushed for more monitoring....
And like I said, these tragedies happen on both sides. It's kind of like the story of the homebirth mom that died, it went viral.. was huge, but moms die in hospital births just as often (rate wise) and we don't ever hear about those on the news. The friend that lost her friend, noone will ever likely hear her story on some mommy blog of news source but hers is just as real & just as tragic and she DIDN'T have a choice in her delivery... And noone is going to question or challenge that there are other routes that could have avoided such an outcome.
It's really sad all the way around, I just wish that blogs & media sources wouldn't just jump on vbac or home birth stories... what about all the other moms & babies that chose the more conventional way & still died?
coconut / 8234 posts
@runsyellowlites: I felt the article was missing some details and I wanted more information. It's scary, but this woman hadn't even attempted a VBAC yet. Her uterus ruptured before labor actually began, right?
I've been doing a lot of reading about VBACs and risks. One of my friend's had a scheduled c-section for her 2nd and went into labor before it was scheduled and she had a uterine scar dehiscence, which is more common but still sounds scary to me.
coconut / 8305 posts
@mrsjazz: Yea, I felt it was written to sensationalize the vbac risks... and yes, the risk of rupture really is something that can happen any time in future pregnancies. It's scary to think & personally makes me angrier about all the first cesareans performed that could have been avoided (that's a different thread though).
Full ruptures are incredibly rare.. out of the .87% (this rate was gathered from vbacs that included inductions & augmentations) even less are full ruptures & in the 2010 NIH consensus they didn't have any "catastrophic" ruptures. Most are "windows" or like your friend's that often aren't found until after delivery. (not that that really makes anyone feel better )
blogger / pineapple / 12381 posts
@runsyellowlites: Meh, I think there are plenty of stories about the problems of over-medicaliZing birth. Those stories are what led to your viewpoint, right?
Plenty of data out there that OBs cut too much in the US.
coconut / 8305 posts
@Mrs. Jacks: Generally I try to stay away from personal stories... My viewpoint was gathered from the journal articles, studies, & stats. I have come across a handful of stories that affirmed my viewpoint though.
But yes I agree there is plenty of data in regards to our high primary cesarean rates, I don't think ill lighted personal stories are needed to make that observation.
grapefruit / 4800 posts
I guess statistically there's a slightly higher risk to VBAC but not much with the right conditions. Repeated C sections also have risks and some of that needs to be considered from an individual aspect. Statistics based on a whole like that are not very good about parsing out individual situations, especially when both options have significant risks.
I guess I'm a bit surprised about the monitoring, though it's hard to tell the situation from just one side of the story. But I have something a lot less statistically linked to complications and there's a decent amount of monitoring going on during my pregnancy. Part of that is due to what I want since they were not strongly advocating one way or another but VBAC has clear risks so I would want lots of monitoring near my due date if I chose to go that route.
bananas / 9357 posts
Such a tragic story.
This story sounds like they're trying to scare women out of vbac. I don't get why if they knew it ruptured, did they still try to induce labor? Wouldn't surgery be needed anyways? I don't know much about this stuff so sorry if I'm incorrect.
coconut / 8305 posts
@mrskc: As it's written it seems they thought the baby had just passed... it was later that she was told about what she felt being her uterus. I guess in that case an inductions would be the recommendation?.. idk. *shrugs shoulders*.
And FWIW I've spoken with an anesthesiologist that has said she actually sees scar tissue adhering the uterus to the bladder quite often. She said that often times it's something she is seeing patients in the OR for even a decade of more after the initial cesarean.
eggplant / 11824 posts
@Mrs. Jacks: I agree with you. There's a lot of sharing as gospel here of a "Facebook-friend-of-a-friend-knows-someone-who" and armchair doctoring based on reading studies (of unknown academic scholarship) online.
coconut / 8498 posts
@Mrs. Jacks: @yoursilverlining: I'm with you two. I think the last paragraph of the article sums it up.
coconut / 8305 posts
@yoursilverlining: I'm sorry but that is really upsetting. This woman is someone that is part of our group & she lost someone very close to her. That would be like you telling of a close friend you lost and me deeming it not valid b/c it's a "friend of a friend...." I couldn't imagine one of us coming on here to share our grief and then if we shared what happened the person acting like it was ridiculous to consider the sadness of the circumstance b/c they themselves didn't "know" the person. I know if my DH reacted that way when I've shared my heart about the hardships some of you ladies have/are experienced it would be incredibly hurtful.
The NIH and acog recommend vbac for most for a reason... these weren't always the recommendations but are now b/c of their findings. I would think that they wouldn't be considered "unknown academic scholarship".
I get that not everyone is "for" vbac though and that's fine, every mom should be able to make an informed choice based on her rights & circumstance..... but there IS tragedy on both sides here. Neither should be vilified & the risks should be presented in an informative manner, not bullying or biased, for both.
I am very supportive of vbacs but have never told someone they should vbac just b/c I have... I've always just pointed them in the direction of the information.
bananas / 9227 posts
“Women should remember that a birth is about bringing a baby into the world, and they should not be made to feel like they are doing something wrong if they opt for a repeat c-section.”
I agree with her quote. I had an induced, vaginal birth with a failed epidural and no other pain meds excluding the occasional puff of laughing gas. I was cursing Ricki Lake during my delivery. A birth is about bringing a baby into the world. A vaginal birth does not make you a woman. Feeling every pain and contraction didn't make me more of a woman.
pomegranate / 3003 posts
@Crumbs: My exact thoughts, entirely.
Too often, I think women are encouraged to measure their "mommy points" by their painful sacrifices, rather than their quiet moments of success. We (I'm not talking about this community, in particular, just in general) beat our chests over how long we labored before requesting or avoiding pain meds, or how many months (or years) we breastfed our children. While pride is warranted and great, the same proclamations can sadly work to alienate and vilify a portion of the mothering and medical communities.
I freely admit that I eventually couldn't handle the pain of my 0-60, induced vaginal labor, and requested an epidural. And, for whatever reason, my milk supply has unspeakably low from the start. While these events were not part of my initial "plan", I am not less of a woman because of these particular decisions, and fates.
There are tragedies, errors, triumphs, and successes on both sides of the fence. For the most part, women genuinely want what is absolutely best for their children, and I truly believe an overwhelming amount of medical professionals feel the same. As long as we make decisions based in good faith, we're doing it right.
coconut / 8305 posts
@Crumbs: @deerylou: I really don't think that is the point of this post.. I mean I guess it's got that spin on the article (moreso for being pro-erc over supportive of vbac), but it definitely wasn't want prompted my sharing.
FWIW erc is the mainstream and more accepted choice for moms with a previous cesarean (~ only 1 out of 10 will choose to try vbac) so generally there is alot more backlash for moms that choose vbacs than ercs... we're told we're trying to kill our babies, and that we're stupid, that we are misinformed of the recommendation (even though acog makes it readily available), and the majority of us have a really hard time finding a provider willing to look at & consider the recommendation (I've experienced all of these including being told by a maternal care provider that I was wrong about the recommendation... scary that this particular provider didn't know the recommendation for their own specialty) eep.
I do absolutely agree that as moms we're really just trying to do what we feel is best, and in that we should be as informed as we can be so we can all have the best outcomes possible! I think THAT is what this is about & knowing that bad outcomes happen on both ends of the spectrum. 
watermelon / 14206 posts
There are tragedies in every aspect of childbirth. I was at a birth center with a midwife and lost my baby in labor. Now, I'll be going through an OB/GYN and I know that it doesn't guarantee that I'll bring my baby home with me at the en of it all.
There's always a risk, no matter which way you go, no matter what you decide. Sometimes you can't help it, no matter what you do.
grapefruit / 4800 posts
@deerylou: I strongly disagree with this sentiment. There's lots of reasons why women make choices on both sides, the reason is not chest beating and one upping, perhaps that may be the case with some but I doubt it's the case for the majority. Most women that I know who have made a variety of choices take a long, deliberate look and it makes me sad to see a set of decisions reduced to cheat beating.
I used to lie to people in my community who asked how long I nursed my daughter (2 years) because I was afraid of seeing the reaction in your post or being seen as one of those 'crazy moms' but now I'm honest, it was best for our family even though it wasn't my original plan, and if they take that as chest beating or unnecessary self sacrifice to get mommy points then that's fine, that kind of quick unfair judgement is not going to make me lie.
pomegranate / 3003 posts
@Maysprout: And in my comment, I did mention that pride in regards to both of these things were warranted and great. However, while you may have experienced judgement for your decisions, I have received judgement for mine. It might be entirely due to demographics, as I live in a very liberal area in California, where medicated births/interventions and formula feeding - for whatever reason - are both far more taboo than the alternative.
Again, I did clarify that I am not speaking to the HB community in particular, but what I've experienced, personally.
nectarine / 2085 posts
@Dandelion: I think you said it perfectly.
As to VBAC vs. RCS, I think there should be a choice, because there are risks associated with both. But I recognize that with choice comes the very real possibility of regret. That is true of any choice.
nectarine / 2019 posts
I feel sad for her.
VBAC's are normal in lots of parts of this country and happen every single day with zero complications, the same way normal labor does. To hear one story and then decide that this is "Why I will never have a vbac" seems silly to me. If you don't want to have one after weighing the medical data great, but Mama's and babies die everyday during "normal" labor and we all keep making babies.
@deerylou: Although overall we don't agree, I see where you're coming from with your statements.
I think lots of woman have a consicious/unconcious baby contest with every Mama they meet. In the Moms group I sit in weekly at our local hospital, the majority of the new Moms
there wants to tell the story of her "difficult" pregnancy, her "complications", her "long labor", her med choice, wether or not the med worked, etc. Why? I used to think it was about sharing the pain/tragedgy/excitement or whatever. However, I've now realized that these woman want to have had the hardest labor because somehow that makes them "better" than the woman sitting next to her.
I never share my story unless it's relevant. I just don't feel the need to be the one upper.
grapefruit / 4800 posts
@junebugmama: I've found moms sharing birth stories are often getting their thoughts and feelings out. Birth often happens in quite a different manner than women expect and a lot of women fair better when they express their experiences rather than internalizing their feelings or being quiet about their experiences in fear that they might offend someone or be viewed as a one upper.
persimmon / 1180 posts
@Crumbs: I think more women need to hear this. I see a lot of things implying that a woman who had a c-section is less of a woman than one who had a vaginal delivery.
nectarine / 2019 posts
@Maysprout: I'm not saying their is nothing beneficial from sharing experiences, there is always value in that, what I am acknowledging is that there are times where someone interrupts with "you think 15 hours was bad? I labored for 30 hours med free..." I hate that mentality. Same with everyone loving fat babies, I always feel for the mom with the normal size baby, who is questioning her supply because her child isn't in the 90th percentile for weight. At no other time in life would people respond with a "good job mama" if you were putting you child in the 90th percentile, except for when you're breast feeding an infant. The percentile competitions get to me as well.
pomelo / 5789 posts
@honeybear: @Dandelion: I agree that you both say things perfectly.
Birth's don't seem to go as planned, and there are always choices along the way. There's not always a clear cut "right" choice, and there is always room for regret. Ultimately we are the ones that will have to live with those choices, so we need to make the best choices for us, based on all of the information we have.
Personally I plan to try for a VBAC as long as I am considered a good candidate - despite the risks of uterine rupture. I plan to seek out a provider known for VBACs and will make sure than I have full confidence in them before the birth.
I bled out on the table during my C-Section and it was pretty dicey for a while. I will do what it takes to avoid that, providing my doctor is in agreement.
bananas / 9899 posts
@deerylou: How eloquently and beautifully put! Thank you for posting this. I feel like your post can also reflect on those who struggle with IF.
pomegranate / 3003 posts
I have to ask an honest question and really hope to get an honest answer, and not just what's considered PC or kind.
What scenario garners more congratulatory responses - a birth story that involves a scheduled induction at the advice of her OB, or one that centers around a woman that pushed for an unmedicated labor at home? How often do you see a photographic montage of brave women nursing in public? To behonest, I am just now working up the courage to formula feed outside of my home.
I hardly feel that anyone wants to see pictures of my bottle.
HB is a pretty supportive alcove, but I come from a place where the choices I've made based on circumstances that are out of my control are often questioned. I don't discourge pride, at all. I'm just being honest in what is often painted as "more motherly" in my world.
grapefruit / 4110 posts
@deerylou: I think the one that needs a congratulatory response is the one that makes the mother in power. It doesn't matter how that happens. So if an induction gives the mother power then more to her. If the c-section gives the mother power than that is what is appropriate. I'm not entirely sure that if I had a 13 pound baby (like the ones in the news) that a vaginal birth would be appropriate for me or give me power.
Obviously the story is one view point but I am not sure I felt like she had the power to make decisions. I know I loved my birth (which was not perfect) because I was in charge of it. I had the power to make the choices I wanted. Making those kinds of choices is terrifying and bad things can happen. Bad things can happen when I get in my car or when I walk down the street. But I make those choices too.
grapefruit / 4681 posts
@Mrs. Jacks: I couldn't agree with you more on all points.
No doubt this is such a tragic story.
blogger / pineapple / 12381 posts
@deerylou: just know that I silently cheer on every mama who gets an epidural because it was the right thing for her. The only medal or badge of honor at the end of labor is the baby... And when the baby goes off to college he or she isn't goin to give a rats a$$ as to whether she was a medicated or med free birth... Only that she's alive and has the mental capacity to go to college.
I proudly bottle fed our second daughter in public... And yeah I got a ton of judgment, but those who dared say something quickly regretted their choice to do so. I was just daring anyone to try!
coconut / 8305 posts
I think we've gotten completely off point (vaginal vs cesarean, medicated vs. unmedicated, smooth delivery vs. complicated, etc really isn't & wasn't the point), but personally I think any mom that makes an informed choice looking & considering all the risks vs. benefits in whatever that choice may be deserves congratulations... too many just do things b/c they "want" or because it was "offered" or even because it was "recommended" without any regard to the risks/benefits that come with that decision. Those times are saddening to me & I feel a loss for our rights as women & moms when decisions are made so blindly.
Regardless of choice there is going to be parts we would've liked to have been different, atleast if it was an informed choice we can own & more easily accept them.
honeydew / 7687 posts
@runsyellowlites: I don't think it's fair to say you like off-topic conversation/threadjacking in the 'improving birth' thread but not in this one because it's of a questioning nature instead of an affirming one?
My thoughts on the article are, it sucks. Horrible situation, terrible loss. I agree with you that all mothers should be informed of their options and make supported decisions. I just don't think that all mothers who are informed of their options will necessarily choose an unmedicated, vaginal birth like you think is best.
I also think sites like mommyish are all about the clicks - so they're going to publish slightly inflammatory stuff on both sides. They linked to a positive VBAC story in the beginning of this one. There seem to be just as many stories floating around about unnecessary C-sections and the villainous doctors who perform them.
I'd love to see more doctors, midwifes, doulas, coming together to present options to mamas. I think HB does a good job of celebrating all babies/births and methods of feeding and I wish I knew how to extend that to the "real world"!
grapefruit / 4800 posts
@runsyellowlites: Sorry, I didn't mean to derail the convo.
I like hearing people's reasoning for why they did or didn't/would or wouldn't choose different things. But there are a lot of intelligent women on HB who put a lot of thought into VBAC and a lot of well educated OBs who perform VBAC but it's def not the right choice for everyone. But that is different than reducing a woman's reasoning to chest beating or one upping. All parents experience negativity from others for some of their choices but that's no reason that it's then OK to do to others.
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